Tottenham Green Market: 'Bernie Grant would be turning in his grave'

Tottenham Green Market: 'Bernie Grant would be turning in his grave'

Tottenham-based cheesemaker Wildes Cheese

Flourish, a Tottenham bakery

Tottenham Green Market: 'Bernie Grant would be turning in his grave'

First published in News
Last updated
Haringey Independent: Photograph of the Author by

 A market has been criticised by a community group over its lack of ethnic diversity.

Jessica Vos, who runs Tottenham Green Market with Adam Layton, says she had received hostile comments from people visiting the stalls who felt the market did reflect the cultural range of Tottenham.

Ms Vos, who previously ran Harringay Market , said she was “surprised” by the comments but remained keen to hear what people in Tottenham wanted.

She said: “This market was always going to be a six-week trial to see whether people in Tottenham were interested.

“Adam and I thought we’d just trial what we’re used to doing, but we do want to hear what people want in a market.

“We don’t have a big network here, but not because we don’t want one. We need people to come up to us and tell us what they want.”

Yvonne Field, who represents an organisation that promotes equality for the African Diaspora community in the UK, wrote a letter to Mr Layton in which she raised concerns over “the lack of African Diaspora community represented as stall holders”.

The email, which was also circulated on an Our Tottenham mailing list of local businesses, said the market represented a “middle class Tottenham”.

Ms Field said: “The folk music that was playing and overall ambience created [at Tottenham Green Market] yesterday reminded me of suburbia or even a village green atmosphere and seemed to reflect what has already happened in other parts of London such as Brixton, Dalston and Deptford (to name but a few).

“Is Tottenham going to end up like this? I and many others are extremely worried about this possibility. How might we co-create something that truly reflects the neighbourhood and acts as an exemplar for the rest of the country?”

She added: “I hope we can work together to ensure real representation in terms of the voices which are heard and that is is not just a tokenistic gesture, so that diverse needs can be met in Tottenham.”

Nerfetiti Gayle, of Our Tottenham, said: “The market is not representing the ethnic mix of Tottenham, and it’s specifically not representing the black community.

“There were other kinds of food there ‑ like Peruvian, or Chinese – but I’m not sure those stallholders live in Tottenham.

“The market is right outside the Bernie Grant Arts Centre. Bernie Grant would be turning in his grave.”

Ms Gayle said that she had approached the organisers of the market about setting up a stall herself.

She said: “I’ve been in Tottenham since 1973. Not only that, I’ve contributed to Tottenham. I’ve worked with young people in Tottenham. My children went to school in Tottenham.”

Ms Vos said that she was happy to give people a chance to run a stall in the market, but that all stalls needed to have proper food hygiene certificates and the correct insurance.

She said there was a good mix of cultures present in the market, including Malaysian and Indian and that there had been Latin American stalls, but they had chosen to leave as they were not selling much.

Ms Vos said: “I don’t sell African Caribbean food because I don’t want to be in competition with the cafe in the Bernie Grant Arts Centre.”

She said: “My market is about giving people with new businesses a chance.  There’s no point going to the shops up the High Road and asking if they want to be involved because they’re there already.”

Comments (26)

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7:52pm Tue 5 Aug 14

Haringreat says...

I hate it when people play racial politics. How many markets in London have an over representation of african stall holders? Quite a few I'd bet. But in Totttenham Chinese, Peruvian etc isn't good enough and heaven forbid should England be represented - that would be a disaster!
I hate it when people play racial politics. How many markets in London have an over representation of african stall holders? Quite a few I'd bet. But in Totttenham Chinese, Peruvian etc isn't good enough and heaven forbid should England be represented - that would be a disaster! Haringreat
  • Score: 36

8:05am Wed 6 Aug 14

philipf says...

This is a storm in a teacup. If someone doesn't want to compete they shouldn't be in business. Competition is what that cafe needs. Bernie Grant would NOT be turning in his grave over this...it's David Lammys support for Israel and austerity that would have him in a fury.......
This is a storm in a teacup. If someone doesn't want to compete they shouldn't be in business. Competition is what that cafe needs. Bernie Grant would NOT be turning in his grave over this...it's David Lammys support for Israel and austerity that would have him in a fury....... philipf
  • Score: 9

9:26am Wed 6 Aug 14

bz says...

This is one of the most ridiculous stories I've read in some time. I feel for Ms. Vos who is obviously trying to do something for Tottenham. I won't be surprised when she leaves and takes her good work elsewhere.
This is one of the most ridiculous stories I've read in some time. I feel for Ms. Vos who is obviously trying to do something for Tottenham. I won't be surprised when she leaves and takes her good work elsewhere. bz
  • Score: 40

10:18am Wed 6 Aug 14

Josh233 says...

The market represents a 'middle class Tottenham'. So what? Are us middle-class residents not supposed to be here at all, or should we just keep our heads down? The area is not exactly overrun with events of this type, so unless what Ms Field et. al. really want to do is stamp out diversity, I can't really follow their argument.
The market represents a 'middle class Tottenham'. So what? Are us middle-class residents not supposed to be here at all, or should we just keep our heads down? The area is not exactly overrun with events of this type, so unless what Ms Field et. al. really want to do is stamp out diversity, I can't really follow their argument. Josh233
  • Score: 49

12:52pm Wed 6 Aug 14

MartinBall says...

While the occasional market could be part of a programme of events, the call for it to be permanent has to be resisted. It is a green space and there for the community to have a place to relax. It was re-furbished to be a civic heart, not to be the location of a commercial market. Whatever clientele it is catering for.
While the occasional market could be part of a programme of events, the call for it to be permanent has to be resisted. It is a green space and there for the community to have a place to relax. It was re-furbished to be a civic heart, not to be the location of a commercial market. Whatever clientele it is catering for. MartinBall
  • Score: -24

1:44pm Wed 6 Aug 14

Josh233 says...

Haringreat wrote:
I hate it when people play racial politics. How many markets in London have an over representation of african stall holders? Quite a few I'd bet. But in Totttenham Chinese, Peruvian etc isn't good enough and heaven forbid should England be represented - that would be a disaster!
Quite. There are events of this type popping up all over London (yes, including neighbouring areas with a very similar demographic mix). Why should we be subject to this type of scrutiny when others just get on with it?

Frankly, if this continues to be a problem every time someone tries to introduce something new and different to the neighbourhood, we will probably not bother sticking around.
[quote][p][bold]Haringreat[/bold] wrote: I hate it when people play racial politics. How many markets in London have an over representation of african stall holders? Quite a few I'd bet. But in Totttenham Chinese, Peruvian etc isn't good enough and heaven forbid should England be represented - that would be a disaster![/p][/quote]Quite. There are events of this type popping up all over London (yes, including neighbouring areas with a very similar demographic mix). Why should we be subject to this type of scrutiny when others just get on with it? Frankly, if this continues to be a problem every time someone tries to introduce something new and different to the neighbourhood, we will probably not bother sticking around. Josh233
  • Score: 28

9:20pm Wed 6 Aug 14

TanTran says...

This article is ridiculous. If some African or Caribbean stall wants to setup shop then I'm sure they are welcome to. All these types of markets(from Camden to Borough Market etc.) are catering for a certain demographic anyway. If you want cheap, unhealthy, non-organic foods then you go to LIDL or Tesco or Sainsbury just minutes walk away. As a resident who live a minute away I welcome the market and we are definitely shopping there on a weekly basis not because we are uptight rich middle class but the foods are amazingly good, the stall owners are mostly local Tottenham residents, and the produce are healthy as it comes from farms that as far as I'm concerned, organically managed. We are not paying to a multinational giant like Tesco but keeping the money locally in Tottenham.
This article is ridiculous. If some African or Caribbean stall wants to setup shop then I'm sure they are welcome to. All these types of markets(from Camden to Borough Market etc.) are catering for a certain demographic anyway. If you want cheap, unhealthy, non-organic foods then you go to LIDL or Tesco or Sainsbury just minutes walk away. As a resident who live a minute away I welcome the market and we are definitely shopping there on a weekly basis not because we are uptight rich middle class but the foods are amazingly good, the stall owners are mostly local Tottenham residents, and the produce are healthy as it comes from farms that as far as I'm concerned, organically managed. We are not paying to a multinational giant like Tesco but keeping the money locally in Tottenham. TanTran
  • Score: 40

10:24pm Wed 6 Aug 14

LivesInTottenham says...

This is one of the most ludicrous things I have ever read.

Tottenham is not exclusively a black community. It is a very ethnically and racially mixed community and thank God for that! That's why I moved here many years ago. Why can't we just have nice and positive things happen without always bringing them down to colour and race? Or must we ask permission from one set of Tottenham residents before the rest can enjoy something?

And I'd also like to point out that the Bernie Grant Centre were running Caribbean food stalls yards away from the market - I would say this was pretty much a way of excluding themselves. Inclusion runs two ways.
This is one of the most ludicrous things I have ever read. Tottenham is not exclusively a black community. It is a very ethnically and racially mixed community and thank God for that! That's why I moved here many years ago. Why can't we just have nice and positive things happen without always bringing them down to colour and race? Or must we ask permission from one set of Tottenham residents before the rest can enjoy something? And I'd also like to point out that the Bernie Grant Centre were running Caribbean food stalls yards away from the market - I would say this was pretty much a way of excluding themselves. Inclusion runs two ways. LivesInTottenham
  • Score: 38

10:42pm Wed 6 Aug 14

TanTran says...

Thanks LivesInTottenham, there is 130 different languages spoken in Tottenham so we definitely have a very diverse community, not just black. On top of that, there were many races of stall owners, at least one stall out of half a dozen run by a black family business. Ok, she may not have been selling jerk chicken but it does show that the organisers were colour-blind.
Thanks LivesInTottenham, there is 130 different languages spoken in Tottenham so we definitely have a very diverse community, not just black. On top of that, there were many races of stall owners, at least one stall out of half a dozen run by a black family business. Ok, she may not have been selling jerk chicken but it does show that the organisers were colour-blind. TanTran
  • Score: 21

10:43pm Wed 6 Aug 14

Michelle vonAhn says...

The Christmas market that was the forerunner of this pilot was comprised of local traders, with mixed ethnicities. The consultation done at that time indicated that local residents wanted a mix of food, produce and crafts.

Somehow, this preference got translated into handing over Tottenham Green to Jessica Vos, with no competitive tendering for a totally food market. Traders from the Christmas market were not invited to participate, but rather Jessica got to invite people known to her, not necessarily local traders.

If the market was for local people by local traders, I don't think that ethnic mix would come into it, because it would reflect local residents. But this is run by someone who is only interested in food markets, wherever, without any keen regard for local traders or the sensibilities of local people.

Having lost Harringay Market, I guess it is hoped this will be a new income stream for her, never mind the results of consultation, never mind the interests of local traders, and never mind the local residents who gainsay her. This is not a "community venture".

To me, it is not a case of "It doesn't matter who runs the market, as long as we have one." I want a market which supports local traders, and which meets the needs of local people. I hoped for a market that offered a place for local traders to sell their wares, not just a nifty place to get street food. It seems like it is yet again a place focussed solely on profit, rather than enabling local people to develop an income stream.
The Christmas market that was the forerunner of this pilot was comprised of local traders, with mixed ethnicities. The consultation done at that time indicated that local residents wanted a mix of food, produce and crafts. Somehow, this preference got translated into handing over Tottenham Green to Jessica Vos, with no competitive tendering for a totally food market. Traders from the Christmas market were not invited to participate, but rather Jessica got to invite people known to her, not necessarily local traders. If the market was for local people by local traders, I don't think that ethnic mix would come into it, because it would reflect local residents. But this is run by someone who is only interested in food markets, wherever, without any keen regard for local traders or the sensibilities of local people. Having lost Harringay Market, I guess it is hoped this will be a new income stream for her, never mind the results of consultation, never mind the interests of local traders, and never mind the local residents who gainsay her. This is not a "community venture". To me, it is not a case of "It doesn't matter who runs the market, as long as we have one." I want a market which supports local traders, and which meets the needs of local people. I hoped for a market that offered a place for local traders to sell their wares, not just a nifty place to get street food. It seems like it is yet again a place focussed solely on profit, rather than enabling local people to develop an income stream. Michelle vonAhn
  • Score: -24

11:35pm Wed 6 Aug 14

Duck Island says...

This is a very sad thing to read. The event may represent a specific demographic but then so do many events in Tottenham.

It seems the opposite of diversity to say that White Middle Class can't sit in the Sun enjoy a bit a folk music and local cheese.

I'm sure the customers of the Market wouldn't think to tell other parts our community how an event should be run.

Perhaps a little self reflection is needed on what tolerance means.
This is a very sad thing to read. The event may represent a specific demographic but then so do many events in Tottenham. It seems the opposite of diversity to say that White Middle Class can't sit in the Sun enjoy a bit a folk music and local cheese. I'm sure the customers of the Market wouldn't think to tell other parts our community how an event should be run. Perhaps a little self reflection is needed on what tolerance means. Duck Island
  • Score: 24

11:45pm Wed 6 Aug 14

LivesInTottenham says...

Duck Island, thank you. 100% agreed.

I'm enjoying the irony that Ms Gayle represents a group called 'Our Tottenham'. It's obviously not 'our Tottenham' she is interested in, but 'her Tottenham'.

If you look all around Tottenham, I think it's plain that almost all ethnic groups are very well represented indeed. In fact, it could be argued that the Tottenham Market offers something to the one group that, currently, does not find itself particularly catered for.
Duck Island, thank you. 100% agreed. I'm enjoying the irony that Ms Gayle represents a group called 'Our Tottenham'. It's obviously not 'our Tottenham' she is interested in, but 'her Tottenham'. If you look all around Tottenham, I think it's plain that almost all ethnic groups are very well represented indeed. In fact, it could be argued that the Tottenham Market offers something to the one group that, currently, does not find itself particularly catered for. LivesInTottenham
  • Score: 25

8:42am Thu 7 Aug 14

Hon Raja Mantis says...

Mrs Field and Mrs Gayle would do well to read the comments here. All positive ones about the market get a thumbs up and all negative get a thumbs down. I think the market is a positive addition to the area and it offers a good mix of stuff unavailable locally. It has a large proportion of local traders who employ local people. Several of whom I know have lived in Tottenham for many years. I am failing to see a negative here and hope that it continues. Thank you Jessica and Adam for organising.
Mrs Field and Mrs Gayle would do well to read the comments here. All positive ones about the market get a thumbs up and all negative get a thumbs down. I think the market is a positive addition to the area and it offers a good mix of stuff unavailable locally. It has a large proportion of local traders who employ local people. Several of whom I know have lived in Tottenham for many years. I am failing to see a negative here and hope that it continues. Thank you Jessica and Adam for organising. Hon Raja Mantis
  • Score: 29

11:47am Thu 7 Aug 14

DaveTottenham says...

Please also note that in the interesting article, a member of the Our Tottenham coordination group was quoted as representing the group but she had made it clear to the journalist she was speaking just as an individual who was involved in the network. Out Tottenham does not have any agreed position on this matter, and that any views expressed by individuals or affiliated groups - whilst welcome of course! - do not represent the network as a whole. Any local journalist should know that as they often contact us for quotes on various local issues and unless its something we have a clear policy on, and an agreed spokesperson, we decline to respond.

In fact we usually as a matter of principle refer journalists to the appropriate local group active around the issue - eg if its about St Ann's Hospital we would ask them to speak to the Haringey Needs St Ann's Hospital campaign group, if its a heritage issue we would refer them to Tottenham Civic Society, if its a threatened community centre we would expect the journalist to speak to one of their management committee, etc etc. In the article below I am pleased to see that the views of Yvonne from Ubele (one of our affiliated groups), who initiated the debate over the market, are extensively quoted. In this way our network helps to recognise and empower the existing and active local groups, not try to substitute for them!

Anyway, the next Our Tottenham Coordination Group meeting is at 7pm on Wednesday 13th August @ 639 Tottenham High Rd, N17. We will be discussing how to promote and publicise Tottenham Community Empowerment Week (Oct 4-11th) including our next conference on Oct 11th, proposals for mass door-to-door leafleting throughout Tottenham, and also our views about the various official 'consultations' going on over planning and regeneration issues affecting Tottenham.
Please also note that in the interesting article, a member of the Our Tottenham coordination group was quoted as representing the group but she had made it clear to the journalist she was speaking just as an individual who was involved in the network. Out Tottenham does not have any agreed position on this matter, and that any views expressed by individuals or affiliated groups - whilst welcome of course! - do not represent the network as a whole. Any local journalist should know that as they often contact us for quotes on various local issues and unless its something we have a clear policy on, and an agreed spokesperson, we decline to respond. In fact we usually as a matter of principle refer journalists to the appropriate local group active around the issue - eg if its about St Ann's Hospital we would ask them to speak to the Haringey Needs St Ann's Hospital campaign group, if its a heritage issue we would refer them to Tottenham Civic Society, if its a threatened community centre we would expect the journalist to speak to one of their management committee, etc etc. In the article below I am pleased to see that the views of Yvonne from Ubele (one of our affiliated groups), who initiated the debate over the market, are extensively quoted. In this way our network helps to recognise and empower the existing and active local groups, not try to substitute for them! Anyway, the next Our Tottenham Coordination Group meeting is at 7pm on Wednesday 13th August @ 639 Tottenham High Rd, N17. We will be discussing how to promote and publicise Tottenham Community Empowerment Week (Oct 4-11th) including our next conference on Oct 11th, proposals for mass door-to-door leafleting throughout Tottenham, and also our views about the various official 'consultations' going on over planning and regeneration issues affecting Tottenham. DaveTottenham
  • Score: -14

1:19pm Thu 7 Aug 14

DSI_Studio says...

For a celebration of diversity, come to the TAKE THE HIGH ROAD music festival, organised by The High Road Music Collective (T Chances, DSI Studios and the Imagine If campaign).6th September at T Chances, from 1pm, with artists as diverse as Bevis Frond (UK), Pete Campbell (Jamaican), Pro Publico Bono (Polish), Anil Duman And Sahin Erdogan & band (Turkish), UNITY RADIO (local youth radio), Imperial Works (UK), Babatunde (Italy/Nigeria), the list goes on. This is a FREE family event from 1pm - 6pm and a ticketed concert from 6pm til late. Tell Your friends! FREE STALL OPPORTUNITIES AVAILABLE

https://www.facebook
.com/events/29717189
0455738/
For a celebration of diversity, come to the TAKE THE HIGH ROAD music festival, organised by The High Road Music Collective (T Chances, DSI Studios and the Imagine If campaign).6th September at T Chances, from 1pm, with artists as diverse as Bevis Frond (UK), Pete Campbell (Jamaican), Pro Publico Bono (Polish), Anil Duman And Sahin Erdogan & band (Turkish), UNITY RADIO (local youth radio), Imperial Works (UK), Babatunde (Italy/Nigeria), the list goes on. This is a FREE family event from 1pm - 6pm and a ticketed concert from 6pm til late. Tell Your friends! FREE STALL OPPORTUNITIES AVAILABLE https://www.facebook .com/events/29717189 0455738/ DSI_Studio
  • Score: -1

12:03pm Sat 9 Aug 14

Josh233 says...

Michelle vonAhn wrote:
The Christmas market that was the forerunner of this pilot was comprised of local traders, with mixed ethnicities. The consultation done at that time indicated that local residents wanted a mix of food, produce and crafts.

Somehow, this preference got translated into handing over Tottenham Green to Jessica Vos, with no competitive tendering for a totally food market. Traders from the Christmas market were not invited to participate, but rather Jessica got to invite people known to her, not necessarily local traders.

If the market was for local people by local traders, I don't think that ethnic mix would come into it, because it would reflect local residents. But this is run by someone who is only interested in food markets, wherever, without any keen regard for local traders or the sensibilities of local people.

Having lost Harringay Market, I guess it is hoped this will be a new income stream for her, never mind the results of consultation, never mind the interests of local traders, and never mind the local residents who gainsay her. This is not a "community venture".

To me, it is not a case of "It doesn't matter who runs the market, as long as we have one." I want a market which supports local traders, and which meets the needs of local people. I hoped for a market that offered a place for local traders to sell their wares, not just a nifty place to get street food. It seems like it is yet again a place focussed solely on profit, rather than enabling local people to develop an income stream.
Start you own then?
[quote][p][bold]Michelle vonAhn[/bold] wrote: The Christmas market that was the forerunner of this pilot was comprised of local traders, with mixed ethnicities. The consultation done at that time indicated that local residents wanted a mix of food, produce and crafts. Somehow, this preference got translated into handing over Tottenham Green to Jessica Vos, with no competitive tendering for a totally food market. Traders from the Christmas market were not invited to participate, but rather Jessica got to invite people known to her, not necessarily local traders. If the market was for local people by local traders, I don't think that ethnic mix would come into it, because it would reflect local residents. But this is run by someone who is only interested in food markets, wherever, without any keen regard for local traders or the sensibilities of local people. Having lost Harringay Market, I guess it is hoped this will be a new income stream for her, never mind the results of consultation, never mind the interests of local traders, and never mind the local residents who gainsay her. This is not a "community venture". To me, it is not a case of "It doesn't matter who runs the market, as long as we have one." I want a market which supports local traders, and which meets the needs of local people. I hoped for a market that offered a place for local traders to sell their wares, not just a nifty place to get street food. It seems like it is yet again a place focussed solely on profit, rather than enabling local people to develop an income stream.[/p][/quote]Start you own then? Josh233
  • Score: 6

3:09pm Sat 9 Aug 14

jrguk says...

Michelle vonAhn wrote:
The Christmas market that was the forerunner of this pilot was comprised of local traders, with mixed ethnicities. The consultation done at that time indicated that local residents wanted a mix of food, produce and crafts.

Somehow, this preference got translated into handing over Tottenham Green to Jessica Vos, with no competitive tendering for a totally food market. Traders from the Christmas market were not invited to participate, but rather Jessica got to invite people known to her, not necessarily local traders.

If the market was for local people by local traders, I don't think that ethnic mix would come into it, because it would reflect local residents. But this is run by someone who is only interested in food markets, wherever, without any keen regard for local traders or the sensibilities of local people.

Having lost Harringay Market, I guess it is hoped this will be a new income stream for her, never mind the results of consultation, never mind the interests of local traders, and never mind the local residents who gainsay her. This is not a "community venture".

To me, it is not a case of "It doesn't matter who runs the market, as long as we have one." I want a market which supports local traders, and which meets the needs of local people. I hoped for a market that offered a place for local traders to sell their wares, not just a nifty place to get street food. It seems like it is yet again a place focussed solely on profit, rather than enabling local people to develop an income stream.
"Michelle vonAhn wrote:
The Christmas market that was the forerunner of this pilot "

I'm not sure that's the case? Is this not a totally separate event organised by a totally different group of people (and there's only so many stalls offering Jam and Chutneys, art, etc. one can cope with at a regular market.)

As to tendering.. did the Council ask for people to run a market (or offer to pay them to do so - where competitive tendering would indeed apply)? It would seem that Ms Vos and Mr Layton initiated and organised it, only upsetting those who wish they'd thought of it first or who didn't have the wherewithal to do it themselves.

Me? I'm fairly new to the area - I've only lived here for about 17 years, and it's been nice to see people out in Tottenham on a Saturday on foot, rather driving to and from the supermarket. I hope it continues.
[quote][p][bold]Michelle vonAhn[/bold] wrote: The Christmas market that was the forerunner of this pilot was comprised of local traders, with mixed ethnicities. The consultation done at that time indicated that local residents wanted a mix of food, produce and crafts. Somehow, this preference got translated into handing over Tottenham Green to Jessica Vos, with no competitive tendering for a totally food market. Traders from the Christmas market were not invited to participate, but rather Jessica got to invite people known to her, not necessarily local traders. If the market was for local people by local traders, I don't think that ethnic mix would come into it, because it would reflect local residents. But this is run by someone who is only interested in food markets, wherever, without any keen regard for local traders or the sensibilities of local people. Having lost Harringay Market, I guess it is hoped this will be a new income stream for her, never mind the results of consultation, never mind the interests of local traders, and never mind the local residents who gainsay her. This is not a "community venture". To me, it is not a case of "It doesn't matter who runs the market, as long as we have one." I want a market which supports local traders, and which meets the needs of local people. I hoped for a market that offered a place for local traders to sell their wares, not just a nifty place to get street food. It seems like it is yet again a place focussed solely on profit, rather than enabling local people to develop an income stream.[/p][/quote]"Michelle vonAhn wrote: The Christmas market that was the forerunner of this pilot " I'm not sure that's the case? Is this not a totally separate event organised by a totally different group of people (and there's only so many stalls offering Jam and Chutneys, art, etc. one can cope with at a regular market.) As to tendering.. did the Council ask for people to run a market (or offer to pay them to do so - where competitive tendering would indeed apply)? It would seem that Ms Vos and Mr Layton initiated and organised it, only upsetting those who wish they'd thought of it first or who didn't have the wherewithal to do it themselves. Me? I'm fairly new to the area - I've only lived here for about 17 years, and it's been nice to see people out in Tottenham on a Saturday on foot, rather driving to and from the supermarket. I hope it continues. jrguk
  • Score: 17

11:52am Mon 11 Aug 14

Tottenham Resident says...

I agree that this article is completely ridiculous . Bernie Grant would not be turning in his grave because Bernie Grant represented everyone that lived in Tottenham regardless of race. I am originally from Yorkshire but have lived in Tottenham for nearly 40 years and my husband has lived in Tottenham all his life. We both love folk music and to say this is middle class is crazy, they have obviously not listened to any folk music. Tottenham has always been a mixed community and as far as I am concerned the middle class people are very welcome in Tottenham. Having read this article I am now going to give the market a visit. I wish the market every success, we want more of this in Tottenham. Tottenham is changing for the better, so people need to get used to this and we need to all work together as Tottenham residents.
I agree that this article is completely ridiculous . Bernie Grant would not be turning in his grave because Bernie Grant represented everyone that lived in Tottenham regardless of race. I am originally from Yorkshire but have lived in Tottenham for nearly 40 years and my husband has lived in Tottenham all his life. We both love folk music and to say this is middle class is crazy, they have obviously not listened to any folk music. Tottenham has always been a mixed community and as far as I am concerned the middle class people are very welcome in Tottenham. Having read this article I am now going to give the market a visit. I wish the market every success, we want more of this in Tottenham. Tottenham is changing for the better, so people need to get used to this and we need to all work together as Tottenham residents. Tottenham Resident
  • Score: 23

2:24pm Mon 11 Aug 14

Michelle vonAhn says...

jrguk wrote: I'm not sure that's the case? Is this not a totally separate event organised by a totally different group of people (and there's only so many stalls offering Jam and Chutneys, art, etc. one can cope with at a regular market.) As to tendering.. did the Council ask for people to run a market (or offer to pay them to do so - where competitive tendering would indeed apply)? It would seem that Ms Vos and Mr Layton initiated and organised it, only upsetting those who wish they'd thought of it first or who didn't have the wherewithal to do it themselves.


Jessica Vos and Adam Layton did not initiate the market. The Council invited them to run the pilot. Haringey Council has paid for an unknown amount for the website development, the logo, publicity materials, set-up and clear-up. This was a Regeneration initiative, and not something that was thought up by Jessica.

I don't know why she was chosen, or how they made decisions about the market, because I have not been able to get an answer from Haringey Council to my questions of:

How did you decide to select Jessica for this partnership? Was the role open to anyone else? What criteria did you use in selecting her? What expectations did you have of the way in which she would undertake the work on your behalf?

Who decided, and why, to make it a food only market, in contrast to the survey respondents' preference?

Why did she not invite all previous participants in the market to the new trial? I understand that she decided it would be food only, but she didn't even contact the food vendors from the previous market.

I do not like the idea of Haringey handing over council resources in such a closed manner, to promote something that is at odds with the consultation outcome.

I am trying to understand just how this state of affairs came about.


According to the FOI request at https://www.whatdoth
eyknow.com/request/t
ottenham_green_marke
t_agreement Haringey states that
"The market received support from the Council in relation to the processing and issuing of licences and event notices and the organising of larger refuse bins on site on market days to ensure the Green was cleaned up afterwards. The Council made a contribution towards the marketing and promotion of the market which included the market logo design, web design, printing of leaflets and posters, and market signage as well as the hire of chairs in order to provide extra seating for people visiting the market."

The Council has PAID for the market to be created, and handed a valuable community asset over to Jessica Vos without any open tendering, giving her a financial benefit. They have done this with no oversight to ensure that there was community benefit beyond local residents being profit fodder. WHY?
[quote][p][bold]jrguk[/bold] wrote: I'm not sure that's the case? Is this not a totally separate event organised by a totally different group of people (and there's only so many stalls offering Jam and Chutneys, art, etc. one can cope with at a regular market.) As to tendering.. did the Council ask for people to run a market (or offer to pay them to do so - where competitive tendering would indeed apply)? It would seem that Ms Vos and Mr Layton initiated and organised it, only upsetting those who wish they'd thought of it first or who didn't have the wherewithal to do it themselves.[/p][/quote] Jessica Vos and Adam Layton did not initiate the market. The Council invited them to run the pilot. Haringey Council has paid for an unknown amount for the website development, the logo, publicity materials, set-up and clear-up. This was a Regeneration initiative, and not something that was thought up by Jessica. I don't know why she was chosen, or how they made decisions about the market, because I have not been able to get an answer from Haringey Council to my questions of: [p][bold]How did you decide to select Jessica for this partnership? Was the role open to anyone else? What criteria did you use in selecting her? What expectations did you have of the way in which she would undertake the work on your behalf? Who decided, and why, to make it a food only market, in contrast to the survey respondents' preference? Why did she not invite all previous participants in the market to the new trial? I understand that she decided it would be food only, but she didn't even contact the food vendors from the previous market. I do not like the idea of Haringey handing over council resources in such a closed manner, to promote something that is at odds with the consultation outcome. I am trying to understand just how this state of affairs came about.[/p][/bold] According to the FOI request at https://www.whatdoth eyknow.com/request/t ottenham_green_marke t_agreement Haringey states that "The market received support from the Council in relation to the processing and issuing of licences and event notices and the organising of larger refuse bins on site on market days to ensure the Green was cleaned up afterwards. The Council made a contribution towards the marketing and promotion of the market which included the market logo design, web design, printing of leaflets and posters, and market signage as well as the hire of chairs in order to provide extra seating for people visiting the market." The Council has PAID for the market to be created, and handed a valuable community asset over to Jessica Vos without any open tendering, giving her a financial benefit. They have done this with no oversight to ensure that there was community benefit beyond local residents being profit fodder. WHY? Michelle vonAhn
  • Score: -17

3:30pm Mon 11 Aug 14

JK1000 says...

It seems to me that most of the negative comments about the market are coming directly from competitors/people in the market business who feel aggrieved at not having been 'chosen' to host this event. As a consumer, I'd like to offer the alternative view that it's simply great to have all of these nice events happening locally, and I think that they can - and should - complement one another. I've attended almost all of them I think: the Christmas Market, Tottenham Green, Ploughmans, and also the events at Lordship Rec Hub etc. All great in different ways.

For this reason I think it's a shame that some cannot see that there is room for all of these events - that's something we should celebrate, surely? A few years ago there was virtually nothing I'd have wanted to go to locally. That is not an exaggeration. And attacking an event because it's 'middle class' is just silly - of course some events are going to cater to that demographic. Have you seen what house prices are doing locally? Plenty of people living here have a lot of disposable income. Do we not want to benefit from that boost to the local economy? It will only go elsewhere otherwise.

Finally, I think it would have been good to have heard from some of those satisfied residents here, as at the moment it just feels like we're hearing the 'B2B' version of the story which of course is going to involve a bit of rivalry. Let's here from those who live here and just want to feel the area is alive and buzzing.
It seems to me that most of the negative comments about the market are coming directly from competitors/people in the market business who feel aggrieved at not having been 'chosen' to host this event. As a consumer, I'd like to offer the alternative view that it's simply great to have all of these nice events happening locally, and I think that they can - and should - complement one another. I've attended almost all of them I think: the Christmas Market, Tottenham Green, Ploughmans, and also the events at Lordship Rec Hub etc. All great in different ways. For this reason I think it's a shame that some cannot see that there is room for all of these events - that's something we should celebrate, surely? A few years ago there was virtually nothing I'd have wanted to go to locally. That is not an exaggeration. And attacking an event because it's 'middle class' is just silly - of course some events are going to cater to that demographic. Have you seen what house prices are doing locally? Plenty of people living here have a lot of disposable income. Do we not want to benefit from that boost to the local economy? It will only go elsewhere otherwise. Finally, I think it would have been good to have heard from some of those satisfied residents here, as at the moment it just feels like we're hearing the 'B2B' version of the story which of course is going to involve a bit of rivalry. Let's here from those who live here and just want to feel the area is alive and buzzing. JK1000
  • Score: 20

4:51pm Mon 11 Aug 14

Michelle vonAhn says...

I am not opposed to a market. I am opposed to Haringey completely disregarding the consultation it undertook in December, and simply selecting Jessica as the organiser of the market, and then having absolutely no input into how the stallholders were to be selected.

As far as I know, the stallholders from the December market were not even offered the opportunity to participate in the pilot, with stallholders have been invited from Jessica's contacts rather than focussed on creating opportunities for local traders. That is not to say that all traders were not from Haringey, but there could have and should have been more.

The idea of simply handing over a community asset like Tottenham Green to someone to be able to create a business without any oversight is untenable, in my opinion. I assume Jessica charged traders to have stalls. The Council picked up the bills for publicity, set-up, cleaning, etc... so that would be simply money in her pocket, her "payment" for running the market. If they are paying someone to provide a service on their behalf, surely there should have been open competition for that or more input into how the market would be organised. Or do you like the idea of the Council doing deals like this?

I was one of the Christmas Market traders. I was specifically asked if I was interested in a future market, but because it was put into the hands of Jessica, I was denied that opportunity. I am a local trader, producing honey and candles, with an unfortunate history with Jessica (a not uncommon occurrence). I have no gripe with the idea of a market, or of it being "middle class", but rather that the pilot disregarded what local people said they wanted - a MIXED market of food and crafts - and that it was simply given to someone with no affinity for that type of market without regard to making it an outlet for local traders.
I am not opposed to a market. I am opposed to Haringey completely disregarding the consultation it undertook in December, and simply selecting Jessica as the organiser of the market, and then having absolutely no input into how the stallholders were to be selected. As far as I know, the stallholders from the December market were not even offered the opportunity to participate in the pilot, with stallholders have been invited from Jessica's contacts rather than focussed on creating opportunities for local traders. That is not to say that all traders were not from Haringey, but there could have and should have been more. The idea of simply handing over a community asset like Tottenham Green to someone to be able to create a business without any oversight is untenable, in my opinion. I assume Jessica charged traders to have stalls. The Council picked up the bills for publicity, set-up, cleaning, etc... so that would be simply money in her pocket, her "payment" for running the market. If they are paying someone to provide a service on their behalf, surely there should have been open competition for that or more input into how the market would be organised. Or do you like the idea of the Council doing deals like this? I was one of the Christmas Market traders. I was specifically asked if I was interested in a future market, but because it was put into the hands of Jessica, I was denied that opportunity. I am a local trader, producing honey and candles, with an unfortunate history with Jessica (a not uncommon occurrence). I have no gripe with the idea of a market, or of it being "middle class", but rather that the pilot disregarded what local people said they wanted - a MIXED market of food and crafts - and that it was simply given to someone with no affinity for that type of market without regard to making it an outlet for local traders. Michelle vonAhn
  • Score: -17

6:49pm Mon 11 Aug 14

LivesInTottenham says...

Interesting, then, that I saw numerous requests for new stallholders for the market on Twitter in the months leading up to the market and during its run. That doesn't seem to sit well with the claims that it was too exclusive. I'm not a trader, and I don't know anyone connected to the market, but I certainly felt I could bid for a stall if I so wished.

I agree with JK1000. When you scratch the surface of this story, it seems that under the sensationalist headline, and the two contributors trying to bring race into the equation (a pretty awful thing to do actually - shame on the journalist for allowing that to happen) there is a bubbling pit of animosity and jealousy against those running the market.

I cannot help but feel that this argument should have been undertaken privately, and not brought into the public arena. It stinks of sour grapes.

I write this as a user of the market, with no vested interest, other than as a local resident who wants to see the area improve.
Interesting, then, that I saw numerous requests for new stallholders for the market on Twitter in the months leading up to the market and during its run. That doesn't seem to sit well with the claims that it was too exclusive. I'm not a trader, and I don't know anyone connected to the market, but I certainly felt I could bid for a stall if I so wished. I agree with JK1000. When you scratch the surface of this story, it seems that under the sensationalist headline, and the two contributors trying to bring race into the equation (a pretty awful thing to do actually - shame on the journalist for allowing that to happen) there is a bubbling pit of animosity and jealousy against those running the market. I cannot help but feel that this argument should have been undertaken privately, and not brought into the public arena. It stinks of sour grapes. I write this as a user of the market, with no vested interest, other than as a local resident who wants to see the area improve. LivesInTottenham
  • Score: 19

9:40pm Mon 11 Aug 14

Michelle vonAhn says...

Yes, I am aggrieved that I did not hear about the market until too late to apply, but once I knew it was Jessica running it, I knew that I had little to no chance of getting a place anyway.

Do you really think that using only Twitter is an appropriate way to invite traders to something that is a COMMUNITY RESOURCE? The Council is supposed to ensure BROAD community engagement, and using only that single channel is pitching it only at a very limited demographic.

You don't mind that no one who had previously put energy into the market in December was not invited to participate via email directly? I am not talking about just myself. I know there was a local jam and chutney maker who was a Christmas trader that was not contacted, passed over instead for someone from outside the borough.

Do you really think that it is ok to give someone Council land and support them with Council funding for publicity and services, in order for them to make money by using those resources as a business, without trying to ensure that there were wider benefits to local traders, to help boost economic regeneration in Tottenham?

The fact that Tottenham has a large minority ethnic population, and the market traders did not appear to reflect that does have some relevance here. It is not about whether it was "middle class", or not, but whether it was truly made open to local traders to participate.
Yes, I am aggrieved that I did not hear about the market until too late to apply, but once I knew it was Jessica running it, I knew that I had little to no chance of getting a place anyway. Do you really think that using only Twitter is an appropriate way to invite traders to something that is a COMMUNITY RESOURCE? The Council is supposed to ensure BROAD community engagement, and using only that single channel is pitching it only at a very limited demographic. You don't mind that no one who had previously put energy into the market in December was not invited to participate via email directly? I am not talking about just myself. I know there was a local jam and chutney maker who was a Christmas trader that was not contacted, passed over instead for someone from outside the borough. Do you really think that it is ok to give someone Council land and support them with Council funding for publicity and services, in order for them to make money by using those resources as a business, without trying to ensure that there were wider benefits to local traders, to help boost economic regeneration in Tottenham? The fact that Tottenham has a large minority ethnic population, and the market traders did not appear to reflect that does have some relevance here. It is not about whether it was "middle class", or not, but whether it was truly made open to local traders to participate. Michelle vonAhn
  • Score: -17

12:34am Tue 12 Aug 14

Hon Raja Mantis says...

The article is not very balanced and as JK1000 says it would have been good to have had quotes and facts from some supporters. If the council chose who to run the market then they probably had an idea those people might make it a success. They have been proved right. The facts also speak for themselves. Many if not most of the traders are local. Some employing many locals. I believe Flourish employ about 40 people. Beavertown is made locally, Wildes is local and employs local people. The two who run the stall with dog treats are local, the coffee people are local and about to open another shop, locally. What all these guys sell and do, until now, was not available in Tottenham. This appears to be a major factor in the success. By all accounts they have sold well here. I have followed this thread and comments, thumbs up and down and it is plain that the Market is wanted and the negative posts are quickly given the thumbs down. Business is business and sometimes it can not go in your favour but to have a go at the organisers because you lost out is not going to help you. Neither is claiming that local people and wide demographic are not taking part or included when they obviously are. Nothing can possibly be for everyone but if something is a success for quite a few why try and trash it?
Misguided animosity and personal attacks have no place here.
As you can imagine, I am a fan of the market. I hope it continues. I am happy to be giving my money to local traders who employ local people. I am surprised and saddened when people are not.
The article is not very balanced and as JK1000 says it would have been good to have had quotes and facts from some supporters. If the council chose who to run the market then they probably had an idea those people might make it a success. They have been proved right. The facts also speak for themselves. Many if not most of the traders are local. Some employing many locals. I believe Flourish employ about 40 people. Beavertown is made locally, Wildes is local and employs local people. The two who run the stall with dog treats are local, the coffee people are local and about to open another shop, locally. What all these guys sell and do, until now, was not available in Tottenham. This appears to be a major factor in the success. By all accounts they have sold well here. I have followed this thread and comments, thumbs up and down and it is plain that the Market is wanted and the negative posts are quickly given the thumbs down. Business is business and sometimes it can not go in your favour but to have a go at the organisers because you lost out is not going to help you. Neither is claiming that local people and wide demographic are not taking part or included when they obviously are. Nothing can possibly be for everyone but if something is a success for quite a few why try and trash it? Misguided animosity and personal attacks have no place here. As you can imagine, I am a fan of the market. I hope it continues. I am happy to be giving my money to local traders who employ local people. I am surprised and saddened when people are not. Hon Raja Mantis
  • Score: 14

11:22am Tue 12 Aug 14

JK1000 says...

Michelle vonAhn wrote:
Yes, I am aggrieved that I did not hear about the market until too late to apply, but once I knew it was Jessica running it, I knew that I had little to no chance of getting a place anyway.

Do you really think that using only Twitter is an appropriate way to invite traders to something that is a COMMUNITY RESOURCE? The Council is supposed to ensure BROAD community engagement, and using only that single channel is pitching it only at a very limited demographic.

You don't mind that no one who had previously put energy into the market in December was not invited to participate via email directly? I am not talking about just myself. I know there was a local jam and chutney maker who was a Christmas trader that was not contacted, passed over instead for someone from outside the borough.

Do you really think that it is ok to give someone Council land and support them with Council funding for publicity and services, in order for them to make money by using those resources as a business, without trying to ensure that there were wider benefits to local traders, to help boost economic regeneration in Tottenham?

The fact that Tottenham has a large minority ethnic population, and the market traders did not appear to reflect that does have some relevance here. It is not about whether it was "middle class", or not, but whether it was truly made open to local traders to participate.
Michelle> I do get what you're saying, but again you are completely looking at this from a trader's POV. While I can have a degree of empathy with your position, shouldn't this discussion focus more on the much wider group involved, i.e. local residents/customers?

The types of stalls you are talking about have their place and I enjoyed the Christmas event a great deal. However, as a consumer living in Tottenham what I want is not more of the same, but crucially, something that is new and not already available. This is where the market really stood out for me - crafty fare would not fit with the 'brand' it created, and I can totally see why a decision was made to exclude it. That's not to say we can't have fantastic crafts events as well.

Also, as Hon Raja points out, the criticism about traders not being local is actually not accurate: I know for a fact that most I could name live in Tottenham or at least in Haringey. I really do think this all comes down to sour grapes I'm afraid. And as for the nasty comments levelled at Jessica, please give it a rest! She also had a business partner in this venture, and I can't help noticing that as usual it's the woman involved who gets all the flak :(
[quote][p][bold]Michelle vonAhn[/bold] wrote: Yes, I am aggrieved that I did not hear about the market until too late to apply, but once I knew it was Jessica running it, I knew that I had little to no chance of getting a place anyway. Do you really think that using only Twitter is an appropriate way to invite traders to something that is a COMMUNITY RESOURCE? The Council is supposed to ensure BROAD community engagement, and using only that single channel is pitching it only at a very limited demographic. You don't mind that no one who had previously put energy into the market in December was not invited to participate via email directly? I am not talking about just myself. I know there was a local jam and chutney maker who was a Christmas trader that was not contacted, passed over instead for someone from outside the borough. Do you really think that it is ok to give someone Council land and support them with Council funding for publicity and services, in order for them to make money by using those resources as a business, without trying to ensure that there were wider benefits to local traders, to help boost economic regeneration in Tottenham? The fact that Tottenham has a large minority ethnic population, and the market traders did not appear to reflect that does have some relevance here. It is not about whether it was "middle class", or not, but whether it was truly made open to local traders to participate.[/p][/quote]Michelle> I do get what you're saying, but again you are completely looking at this from a trader's POV. While I can have a degree of empathy with your position, shouldn't this discussion focus more on the much wider group involved, i.e. local residents/customers? The types of stalls you are talking about have their place and I enjoyed the Christmas event a great deal. However, as a consumer living in Tottenham what I want is not more of the same, but crucially, something that is new and not already available. This is where the market really stood out for me - crafty fare would not fit with the 'brand' it created, and I can totally see why a decision was made to exclude it. That's not to say we can't have fantastic crafts events as well. Also, as Hon Raja points out, the criticism about traders not being local is actually not accurate: I know for a fact that most I could name live in Tottenham or at least in Haringey. I really do think this all comes down to sour grapes I'm afraid. And as for the nasty comments levelled at Jessica, please give it a rest! She also had a business partner in this venture, and I can't help noticing that as usual it's the woman involved who gets all the flak :( JK1000
  • Score: 15

12:23pm Tue 12 Aug 14

Michelle vonAhn says...

I don't think that asking for some accountability for the decision-making on the market is "sour grapes".

The local community was asked what kind of market they wanted in December. The pilot did not address that. Who made that decision and why?

The December traders were led to believe that a future market would offer them opportunities too. They were not contacted, even those who did fit the desired profile of "food". I sell honey, and I think that qualifies as "food" too. Who determined who would be contacted, or how the market would be advertised? Was there any attempt to include wider local traders who do not already participate in the markets already in existence?

What is the point of inviting comments in a survey, when the future of the market has apparently already been decided?

I do not believe I have made any "nasty comments" about Jessica. Everything I have stated is factual.
I don't think that asking for some accountability for the decision-making on the market is "sour grapes". The local community was asked what kind of market they wanted in December. The pilot did not address that. Who made that decision and why? The December traders were led to believe that a future market would offer them opportunities too. They were not contacted, even those who did fit the desired profile of "food". I sell honey, and I think that qualifies as "food" too. Who determined who would be contacted, or how the market would be advertised? Was there any attempt to include wider local traders who do not already participate in the markets already in existence? What is the point of inviting comments in a survey, when the future of the market has apparently already been decided? I do not believe I have made any "nasty comments" about Jessica. Everything I have stated is factual. Michelle vonAhn
  • Score: -16

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